Public Document Pack
Tuesday, 22 March 2011 at 7.00 pm
Lewisham Council Chamber, Catford, SE6 4RU
The minutes of this meeting were agreed by the LCPCG at the following AGM (held in
March 2012). They are attached as a separate document.
Minute Item 1
Annual General Meeting
7.00 pm Tuesday 22 March 2011
Jackie Addison
Duwayne Brooks
Gary Connors
Superintendent Lisa Crook
Gurbakhsh Garcha
Patricia Carruthers
Deidre Mason
Tom Mann
Jane Duffy
Hayley Chandler
Crada Onuegbu
Martyn Grover
Joanne Hall
Helen Buckley
Gordon Glean
Cora Green
Tamsin Kelland
Barbara Raymond
Bishop Owen Douce
Phil Turner
Mahad Abdullahi
Tayo Disu
R Beavis
LBL Councillor (LCPCG Chair)
LBL Councillor (LCPCG Vice Chair)
LBL Crime Reduction Service Manager
Met Police - Head Partnership Lewisham Borough
Ackroyd Community Association
Catford South Ward Panel
Crofton Park Ward Panel
Downham Ward Panel
Goldsmiths College
LBL Cabinet Member for Community Safety
Lewisham Borough Business Against Crime (LBBAC)
Lewisham Central Ward Panel
Lewisham Disability Coalition
Lewisham Shopping Centre Management Ltd.
Lewisham Victims Support
Metropolitan Police Authority Link Officer
Moonshot Phoenix Youth Club
Ransom Church of God
Second Wave Youth Arts
Somali and Somaliland London Community
The Tabernacle
Victim Support
Daisy Cairns
DCS John Carnochan
Richard and Audrey Adams
Margaret and Barry Mizen
Dan Collis
C Kibblewhite
Jackie Bygrave
Cllr Christine Allison
Paul Newing
Barrie Neal
Ahenkora Bejdaks
Chris Ellen
T O Connor
Vikki Eagon
Abbey Hall
Akosua Amoako
Alice Schweigert
Amanda O-B
Angelina Buckle
Ayo Njie
Dani Babatunde
Daniel Menson
Diguan Nichols
LCPCG Coordinator - minutes
Violence Reduction Unit - guest speaker
Guest speakers
Jimmy Mizzen Foundation- guest speakers
Bonus Pastor Catholic College
Crofton Park SN Panel
Deptford Green School
London Borough of Lewisham
Met Police
Met Police
Met Police
Met Police
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Page 2
F Ismail
Fatu Paul
Foday Dumbua
Jay Jay
Johanna Mia
Josephine Anane
Onose Obanokno
Pamela Nwogbe
Paule Tutice
Rick Champion
Rocky Haines
Stephanie Tei
Tamara Tougnon
Veronica Torres
B T Langridge
Barry Buckley
Dionne Lewis
G Thurley
H D Levy
Janet Spencer
Jenni Steel
Sherene Phillips-Boyd
Bru Rogers
Hena Chowdhury
Kloe Dean
Meg Gray
N Morrison
Talmid Bah
Juney Muhammed
Farhaan Hashi
Abdi Musa
Mahdi Mohammed
John Biddle
Alvan Wright
Ron Dixon
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Prendergast Ladywell Fields College
Bellingham SNP
Riverside ECHG
Second Wave
Second Wave
Second Wave
Second Wave
Second Wave
TSG/Second Wave
Youth Service
Catford South SNP
Jackie Addison, Chair of the LCPCG, thanked everyone for attending and welcomed
them to the LCPCG AGM. She explained to those in the audience who hadn’t been
present earlier that Second Wave had, immediately preceding this meeting, given a
screening and discussion of their new CRITICAL ENCOUNTERS film, which describes
the ongoing project. Second Wave have achieved great things and improving the
quality of interactions and relations on the street between police officers and young
people including the use of Stop and Search powers..
Apologies for absence
LCPCG Members: Geeta Subramanium, Borough Cmdr Jeremy Burton, Heidi
Alexander MP, Joan Ruddock MP, Joan Coulson, Nico Springman, David Michael, Andy
Glyn, Bishop Rouse, Althea Smith, Beverley Ammon, Olivia Sandy
Other Guests: Sir Steve Bullock, Cllr Joan Millbank, Jill Jameson, Asquith Gibbes Cllr
Susan Wise, Aileen Buckton, Cllr Marion Nisbet, Alma Hunt, Cllr Paul Bell, Cllr Darren
Johnson, Cmdr David Zinzan, Eleanor Strachan
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Apologies for lateness: Shaun Willshire and Joanne Hall had both given notice that
they may be late arriving.
The Chair also noted that two members, David Michael and Joan Coulson have both
been unwell in recent months and neither are able to attend tonight.
Constitutional amendments
The Chair, Jackie Addison spoke about the rationale for the first amendment, and why
sharing the decision making and planning is vital to keep the LCPCG vibrant and
effective in the long term - by ensuring that other members of the group have the
experience to take over as Chair. The amendment was proposed by the Chair and
seconded by Phil Turner and agreed unanimously.
“The Strategy Group will develop the strategic direction of the LCPCG, its key
operating principles and will be responsible for the Work Plan. LCPCG officers
(Chair, Vice Chair and Treasurer) together with the Chair of the Stop & Search
Sub-Committee and the LCPCG Co-ordinator will form a Planning Group to
advise the Strategy Group on work planning and administration issues. To
this purpose it will meet separately and bring its recommendations to the
Strategy Group for their approval” (to be inserted before paragraph No 7).
The chair explained that the second amendment is being introduced to regularise the
relationship between the council’s Crime Reduction Service and the LCPCG, as unlike
the relationship with the local police, this is not covered in law. The amendment was
proposed by the Chair and seconded by Tom Mann and agreed unanimously.
“The LCPCG recognises that it has a special relationship with the Safer
Lewisham Partnership (SLP) and therefore the Head of the Crime Reduction
Service, as the Primary Adviser to the SLP, will attend Strategy Group
Meetings, and Sub Committee meetings when invited in an advisory capacity.”
(to be inserted before paragraph No. 8)
Minutes of previous meeting
The minutes of the last LCPCG Annual General Meeting were agreed as a true record.
Chairs’ Report
The Chair presented the LCPCG Annual Report 2009-2011. She explained that she had
looked back over a number of previous reports for inspiration and had particularly
wanted to including the day to day work that the Strategy Group undertake on behalf
of the wider LCPCG membership. Jackie Addison proposed and Gordon Glean
seconded that the Annual Report be accepted. The members unanimously accepted
the report.
Jackie Addison passed the administration of the election to an independent Chair,
Derek Johnson, Business & Civic Manager at Lewisham Council. Before commencing
it was confirmed that everyone who was eligible to vote had voting slips. Jackie
Addison was elected unanimously as Chair and then resumed chairing the meeting.
Tayo Disu was elected as Vice Chair, and James Dobson as Treasurer. Voting also took
place for Strategy Group members, with the following results: Mahad Abdullahi and
Tom Mann were elected as Strategy Group Members with a three year term each and
Duwayne Brooks was elected as Strategy Group Members with a two year term.
(results were announced later during the meeting).
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Guest Speakers
The Chair introduced Mr and Mrs Adams, whose son Rolan was killed in 1991. Mrs
Adams – Yesterday was Rolan’s 36th birthday. He was killed 20 years ago during a
spate of racist murders in Thamesmead. As his parents we will never get over his
death, but just learn to move on. As a community we need to take responsibility.
Some of these events are sensationalised, such as Rolan’s but every day people are
stabbed. Money from government goes to community groups who help keep people
off the streets, and this is being cut in the spending review, this is not political, just a
fact. Families are decimated, victims get forgotten.
Mr Adams – Last month we held a memorial for Rolan, following his last steps and
laying a wreath at the bus stop where he died. As well as all of Rolan’s family, many
of his peer group were there, lots of who are now parents themselves. There were
lots of tears and lots of unresolved issues. In the years after Rolan’s death his friends
found it very difficult to accept and my wife and I tried to help them. They are the
forgotten victims of Rolan’s death.
The Chair then introduced Mrs Margaret Mizen, whose son Jimmy was killed in 2008.
Mrs Mizen spoke about the difficulties of loosing a child, and how Jimmy’s family have
set up the Jimmy Mizen foundation, to bring something good out of the tragedy.
They have visited schools, serious youth violence boards, set up a community café
and help arrange apprenticeships for local youths. Over the last three years we have
completely changed our views – during prison visits we have heard stories which have
given us an insight into the many problems traced back to childhood and we feel we
should ignore this at our peril. Mrs Mizen then introduced the main speaker
Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan and gave the audience some
highlights from his career.
DCS John Carnochan, Head of the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit, introduced
himself, a serving police officer of nearly 40 years, most of which have been as a
detective in serious crime and homicide in Scotland, but also as an advisor in the
Turks and Caicos Islands. In 2005, along with his deputy Karyn Mclusky, a Forensic
Psychologist and Intelligence Analyst, he set up the Violence Reduction Unit (VRU) in
Strathclyde (area around Glasgow), and their remit has now been extended to the
whole of Scotland. The VRU target all forms of violent behaviour, in particular knife
crime and weapon carrying among young men in and around Glasgow but they do not
just consider not about violent CRIME, but about all forms of violence, from bullying
to domestic violence, homicide to suicide. The VRU believe that that the focus of our
collective efforts must be on prevention and that viewing violence as a public health
problem offers the best chance of achieving a sustainable reduction in all forms of
One of the key points of DCS Carnochan’s lecture was the story of a young boy called
David, who started truanting at about 11. At that time he lived in the 14th most
deprived Ward in Scotland. There are loads of gangs in the area, all territorial and all
engaging in recreational violence often involving weapons: knives, golf clubs, bricks,
bottles, whatever was handy. David is involved with one of the gangs. Before he is 13
he has been charged twice with Breach of the Peace. By the time he reaches 14 he
has been charged with housebreaking, assault, shoplifting and theft and is excluded
from school intermittently. Between 14 and 15 he is referred to the Reporter three
times. He is also charged with theft of cars. He is using alcohol and is a solvent
abuser. One night David is in Glasgow city centre with some other members of the
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gang. A fight starts with another gang from another area. David has a knife with him
and during the fight stabs a man. He stabs him only once in the upper torso. His victim
is not a member of a rival gang, not another violent young man, but a wholly innocent
passer by. He dies at the scene. David is arrested and convicted of culpable homicide
and sentenced to seven years. It was a tragic event where the outcome makes it very
easy to distinguish between the victim and the offender, easy to see who is
responsible and clear who to blame: it was David who had the knife, it was David who
stabbed, it was David who lived.
The press are very comfortable with this clear and unambiguous apportioning of
blame. It allows them to say that David is a Vicious Thug, A Hooligan, A Yob, A Ned,
Scum, Feral; another example of a young person who reinforces our view that they
are all like this, out of control, with no respect. I hear and read language used about
young people that if the same language were used about other groups in society it
would be considered unacceptable and quite properly unlawful. We must challenge
that at every opportunity.
He then went on to tell us more about David’s life. He was born in the early 80s. His
mum was an alcoholic and lived on income support. They lived in 19th most deprived
ward in Scotland. When he was three he moved with his mum to the 17th most
deprived ward in Scotland because of domestic abuse. The following year he and his
mum move to the 9th most deprived ward in Scotland because of continuing
harassment from his mum’s ex partner. Three years later they move again this time
back to the 19th most deprived ward in Scotland. David is seven. By the time he is
eight, David moves in with his maternal grandmother through the week as his mum
cannot cope . His grandmother also lives in the 19th most deprived ward. Living in
that house are three adult uncles who have about 120 previous convictions between
them; mostly for drugs, violence and dishonesty. A year later David’s family are rehoused again due to ongoing harassment from his mum’s ex partner. Over the next
three years the family move home a further three times due to local authority plans
for demolition and regeneration. They are now in the 14th most deprived ward in
All this time David has been attending school. When he starts secondary school in the
early 90s, he is diminutive in stature in comparison with other boys in his year. He has
started to get involved with the gangs and is a frequent truant. The family move to a
house back in the 19th most deprived ward in Scotland where they stay for a year
before moving to another house in the same area. David is classroom disruptive,
abusing solvents and excluded from school intermittently. He is also charged with
breaking into houses. He has a home supervision order and is referred three times to
the reporter for assault, shoplifting, theft and breach of the peace. He is drinking. He
is 15. The family are very resistant to social work involvement. Later that year he is
charged with theft of cars.
The following year he is charged with assault, assault and robbery, attempted murder
and murder. He is found guilty of culpable homicide and sentenced to seven years. In
his post trial report, the judge said “There did not seem to be any indication in the
background or supporting evidence suggesting that David is anything other than a
pretty ordinary teenager, although one familiar with general gang culture, involving
significant and indeed quite organised violence between different territorial groups.
He seems to have a decent and supportive family and to feel genuine abhorrence for
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what he did”.
This cannot ever be considered ordinary. The judges comments will have been based
on a social enquiry report and in relation to the case load of the social worker who
prepared it, David’s life was pretty ordinary. I worked in that area and I can
understand how it would seem ordinary.
David went to prison. When he is 19 his mum dies of a heroin overdose. His sister is in
care. Six years into his sentence, David gets escorted leave and gets caught with two
other prisoners dealing drugs. The following year he is released on licence back into
the same house in the same street. When he is released the release report notes:
“Scottish Ministers note that on release David can look forward to strong support
from his grandmother and his wider family in Glasgow and his employment prospects
look favourable”.
In a rather perverse way, David’s employment prospects are favourable. As a young
man with a conviction for murder, lacking empathy, comfortable using violence and
with a local reputation, it will not be a job he’ll get through the Job Centre, but I know
there will be work for him near his home.
David’s story is sadly not unique. It is true that not every violent event ends in murder
but that is what always grabs the attention. The truth is the outcome is largely a
happenstance, so we must concentrate on addressing the behaviour and not just
concentrating our efforts on dealing with the outcome after that point of impact.
In the context of David’s story, DCS Carnochan discussed the importance of the early
years to children’s life chances, long term health, social problems, education and life
expectancy and other issues.
Gangs in Glasgow have a very long history but in the current day they are not Serious
Organised Crime Groups, but rather have a flat hierarchy and fluid membership.
Across Strathclyde there are 150 Gangs with around 2,500 members. In the main
they are based on territory, respect and fear.
DCS Carnochan told the group about the VRU’s Community Initiative to Reduce
Violence scheme or CIRV. CIRV uses the Self Referral Session as a part of its
engagement process to directly and accurately communicate the consequences of
violent behaviour to the gang members. The session demonstrates the availability of
services for those choosing to get out of “gang life,” and the expectations of the
community and the consequences for them should the violent acts continue. Every
attempt is made, therefore, to identify attendees that most broadly represent the
street gangs identified by the intelligence gathering carried out by the CIRV project
team. Each session uses different individuals, from law enforcement, doctors from
Accident and Emergency services, the community and the service delivery agencies,
both voluntary and statutory, to speak at the session. Regular speakers at the session
have included:- Senior police officers; The mother of a boy seriously injured as a result
of gang violence; An ex-prisoner who was convicted of murder following a gang fight;
Ex gang members who have engaged positively with CIRV; CIRV programme
On completion of each self referral session each target client has been issued with a
calling card containing the 24/7 telephone number and instructions for engagement
before being transported back to their local areas. The Self Referral Session has been
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the subject of considerable media interest and in particular was attended by Cherie
Booth QC as part of Channel 4 documentary programme ‘Dispatches’ in summer
2008. It has also been the subject of written press broadsheet features.
DCS Carnochan then took questions from the audience:
Gurbaksh Garcha You are suggesting we are dealing with these type of problems far
too late. Should we be teaching children at school how to be good parents?
John Carnochan Introduced this programme into prisons – it isn’t about people
wanting to be bad parents but them having no role models. Health visitors have a
very important role and there are intensive parenting courses. But it isn’t enough to
work on parenting – that is for future generations – we also have to deal with the
problems on our streets now.
Helen Buckley I’d like to ask you about the different attitudes that to the mentally ill
in Mental Health Professionals and the Police – one to lock up and one wanting to
give them treatment. I think that in these cases police need to listen more to mental
health professionals. Do you agree?
John Carnochan Yes I agree – we need to look at underlying problems.
Juney Muhammed – SLaM Thank you for a very inspiring talk – I think these solutions
are simple but everything is currently focused on crisis management. The structures
aren’t there and the system is only able to deal with people in crisis.
John Carnochan We need to make this message irresistible to politicians – early years
is absolutely crucial but they are getting different messages from elsewhere.
Resilience. Speaking truth honestly and quietly.
Gordon Glean You talked earlier about the Scottish experience not being racially
motivated, but the racial element does exist here in London. The problems we face
here are not around drink, but around ASB and Gang cultures. These issues are
reported to be predominantly black and predominantly male and there are racial
tensions from certain communities. What are your views about institutions being
racially motivated, rather than the perpetrators.
John Carnochan The trouble is that we like to blame others for problems. In Glasgow
this is poor guys living in bad areas. I’m not familiar with all the issues here in
London, I’m not saying it isn’t a big challenge, but it is about aspiration.
Tayo Disu Thank you for a very interesting speech. I really agree with you about the
importance of functional family homes –my work involves providing parenting
lessons. I think we should focus on strengthening families and strengthening
communities because our children are part of our communities. There is a saying that
it takes a whole village to raise a child. So although we may not all have power over
policies, but we can all affect families.
John Carnochan Thank you.
Tom Mann Thank you for an inspiring talk. I’d like to ask a question about money.
What do you think are the main obstacles / what is in the way of making the changes
you would like? Is it 1) that the policy makers don’t know what is needed – i.e. about
education, or 2) that they know what is needed but it is very expensive, which
effectively means a very high triage barrier. What you have done is re-invent
government and it is difficult to sell spending money on nasty people.
Page 8
John Carnochan Politicians do understand but don’t think the public will support the
changes. Sometimes successful projects are happening at a local level and politicians
will look to copy it or to scale it up - very often this is not the answer. Communities
need to be given the support to do it for themselves.
Margaret Mizen It was a very inspiring talk. I wanted to say something about Early
Years – When I had my first baby I stayed in hospital and learned to feed, clean and
change him. I think people need more help and we need to bring love back into their
Unknown gentleman: Hello. You mentioned church a few times but you didn’t
mention role of religious violence – for example sectarian violence in football in
John Carnochan I think that churches are trying to do good in society and I don’t feel
that they deserve to be linked with the football violence – sectarian issues in Scotland
date back a long way and are about a tribal history of warring sides rather than
religion. I see the main issues as being alcohol, violence and power rather than
religion. Those guys squaring up to one another on the touch line of the recent Celtic
vs Rangers match recently weren’t fighting for religion, they’re just idiots!
Barry Buckley Alcohol is not spoken about enough. In the 1960’s there was a very
controlled system for buying alcohol, where it was only available from off licences
attached to pubs. There are public safety campaigns and advertising warning on the
dangers of alcohol, but no one ever talks about controlling the sale of alcohol that
strictly again.
John Carnochan I don’t like talking about “ism’s” but I’d say the reason is capitalism.
Today you can buy beer which is cheaper than water. Whatever the PR people say
businesses are not here to help or look after the community – they are here to make
money and if they can see a way of doing then sooner or later they will. There is a
lawful duty on Company Directors to make the maximum profit for their
Paul Newing Is it TLC that youngsters are crying out for? In London we have areas of
wealth and poverty very close together. Some youngsters see drug dealing as their
only route to wealth. Also you say that violence is a male problem but in London
female gangs are becoming a problem. Also is there any European evidence on ways
of dealing with violent crime?
John Carnochan There is very little evidence from Europe to be honest, you have to
be careful applying systems from one country to another country.
John Carnochan told the audience that he had given further details on the work of the
Violence Reduction Unit, and the CIRV programme to the LCPCG Coordinator so
members could have electronic access.
Lewisham Police Service's Deputy Borough Commander, Supt Lisa Crook
Supt Crook had to leave earlier in the meeting, and Mr Burton’s report from the
annual report was noted to the meeting .
Lewisham Council's Crime Reduction Service Manager, Gary Connors
Gary Connors passed on apologies from Geeta Subramanium and noted that she has
provided an excellent summary of the years work within the LCPCGs Annual report.
Page 9
In the last month or so, plans for the upcoming year have been formalised, and Gary
covered the findings of the Strategic Assessment for 2011/2012 fiscal year. This was
recently approved by the Safer Lewisham Partnership and the annual priorities for
the current year have been set as:
- Young People - Under 25 - Violence and Knife Crime
- Anti Social Behaviour
- Violence Against Women
- Reducing Reoffending
The LCPCG consultation findings were fed into the process that produced the
document and they have supported the 'Anti-Social Behaviour' and 'Young People &
knife crime' priorities.
A multi-agency strategic action plan has been developed to drive activity around
these priorities and public documents are available online on the Lewisham Strategic
Partnership website (look for Safer Lewisham Plan 2011/2012)
10. Any Other Business
Tom Mann thanked the outgoing members of the Strategy Group, including the vice
chair Duwayne Brooks, on behalf of the wider LCPCG.
11. Closing remarks
The chair thanked all the speakers and the audience for coming and invited them to
join her in the West-Indian Buffet which is waiting in the foyer outside.
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